2021年10月30日星期六

荣剑:法国大革命的左翼化逻辑

 荣剑 一宅之谈
1789年6月10日,西哀士走进会场,说:"时候已到,斩断绳索吧。" 从这天起,大革命这艘饱经风雨、姗姗来迟却从未停航的大船,终于朝未来驶了过去。 
——儒勒·米什莱

导读:

法国是大革命的发源地,也是左右对立的故乡。按照马克思主义史学与法国革命史的主流解释,法国大革命源于阶级斗争是不容争辩的前提性认识,法国大革命史是阶级斗争的经典教科书,从阶级的分化、对立到斗争最后是各阶级在革命中的共同毁灭,几乎成为所有法国大革命史的通行叙事模式。本文挑战这个叙事模式,认为法国大革命中的左右分化、对立与冲突才是真正决定大革命不断趋于极端化和恐怖化的内在逻辑,左右的两极化超越了阶级冲突与阶级斗争,更多地是体现在同一个阶级内部,主要是在第三等级内部形成的思想和政治分化,是革命者内部形成的不同派别,并最终是在不同派别之间形成的你死我活的斗争——革命者的自相残杀。革命偏离了正确轨道而走上了恐怖与专制的不归路,实际上是左右之争的结果,或者更准确地说,是革命不断左翼化的结果。


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法国大革命的左翼化逻辑

——左翼问题批判导论之二

 

文 / 荣剑

 

法国是大革命的发源地,也是左右对立的故乡。对于法国大革命的事实判断和价值判断,不管是持赞美的还是持批判的或咀咒的立场,都无法回避这场革命对于欧洲乃至世界历史所形成的深远影响。法国历史学家弗朗索瓦·傅勒在《思考法国大革命》一书中承认:"大革命的得失主要还不在于原因和结果如何,而在于一个社会向着它的所有可能性敞开了。大革命发明了一种政治话语和一种政治实践,从此我们不断地生活于其中。"1傅勒是力图从大革命的巨大影子中走出来的,他一直期待"法国大革命结束了",2这不仅是因为大革命之后近两百年时间足以消弭革命的动力和因素,而且围绕着大革命所展开的世纪之争也不再像过去那样具有鲜明的阶级斗争和党派斗争的性质,也不再包含强烈的革命预期,关于大革命的政治辩论更多地是停留在历史学层面,从左的或右的方面来讨论革命的遗产究竟应该以何种方式来予以继承。但是,对于法国的左翼史学和马克思主义史学来说,法国大革命的历史叙事和理论叙事关系着它们能否继续占据思想界的统治地位,它们轻易不会主动背离大革命的政治文化传统。正如美国学者托尼·朱特所看到的:"谁能'控制'对法国大革命的阐释权,谁就能控制法国,或至少能在大革命后的法国抢占有利位置,主导关于政治合法性的论争。"3


因此,在法国大革命二百周年之际,主导庆典的官方立场是试图以"大革命结束了"来引导整个法国走向对自由、民主、平等和人权这些真正的革命性遗产的重新认可,由此彻底告别"激进化现象、社会冲突的激流回荡和大恐怖的阴影"。4但是,对于左翼的思想战士们来说,大革命是否结束了仍然是一个问题。法国革命史权威米歇尔·沃维尔以《为法国大革命而战》一书公开挑战傅勒的大革命终结论:大革命"对谁结束了?对雅各宾主义的老战士?还是对傅勒,对我们整个'修正主义'一代?"5由此可见,大革命的物理时间结束了,但它酝酿产生的精神冲突——左翼和右翼的思想斗争,在持续了两个世纪之后仍然还远远没有结束。


法国大革命是法国阶级斗争的产物,这是法国大革命史长期以来不容争辩的前提性认识。马克思和恩格斯在1848年《共产党宣言》中宣布:"至今一切社会的历史都是阶级斗争的历史。"6按照这个论断,法国大革命史堪称是阶级斗争的一本经典教科书——从阶级的分化、对立到斗争最后是各阶级在革命中的共同毁灭,几乎成为所有法国大革命史的通行叙事模式。所以,法国的马克思主义史学家阿尔贝·索布尔在他的《法国大革命史》序言里首先强调了马克思阶级斗争理论在革命史研究中的重要位置,认为"大革命归根结蒂应该通过生产关系和生产力性质之间的矛盾来加以解释"。7封建社会是因为不再适应迅速发展的生产力而成为生产的桎梏,这种桎梏"必须被炸毁,它已经被炸毁了"。8基于这个前提性认识,法国大革命被左翼史学或马克思主义史学赋予了资产阶级革命性质,其合法性在摧毁了"封建社会"以及共和制取代了君主制的进程中获得了无可置疑的地位,革命进程中所出现一系列恐怖行为和专制后果则被视为是革命的必要成本,与那些走上断头台的革命者一起,长期被埋葬在历史正当性的坟墓之中。


阶级的分化、对立和斗争,的确构成了人类历史的一条主线。法国大革命期间,第三等级和教士、贵族等级的冲突以及第四等级(工人阶级)走上历史舞台,主导了当时的政治制度变革和社会转型,这是历史学家们普遍认可的一个事实。马克思在1852年致魏特迈的一封信中承认,发现阶级和阶级斗争并不是他的功劳,"在我以前很久,资产阶级历史编纂学家就已经叙述过阶级斗争的历史发展,资产阶级的经济学家也已经对各个阶级作过经济上的分析。"9他所谓的"资产阶级历史编纂学家"就是指的法国"复辟时期"(1814-1830年)所涌现出来的一批历史学家:基佐、梯叶里、米涅、米什莱等,他们的主要研究成果是对法国大革命的近距离观察和历史性反思,包括对于阶级和阶级斗争"事实"的深刻理解,用恩格斯的话来说:"复辟时期的历史编纂学家,从梯叶里到基佐、米涅和梯也尔,总是指出这一事实是理解中世纪以来法国历史的钥匙。"10在马克思主义的评价系统中,谁掌握了阶级和阶级斗争的话语,谁就是掌握了观察现代历史发展动力的不二法门。


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承认阶级斗争的历史,并不意味着历史只能唯一地由阶级叙事或阶级斗争史观来加以解释。马克思和恩格斯所强调的阶级分化,是基于整个社会简单地分裂为两大敌对的阵营,分裂为两大相互直接对立的阶级,革命的性质是由阶级斗争的性质所决定的。但是,在现实的阶级关系和实际的革命进程中,根本就不存在着截然对立的阶级阵营。如同雷蒙·阿隆在批评无产阶级作为"天选阶级"的神话时所指出的那样,根本不存在着一个统一的无产阶级,"所谓'无产阶级'(靠薪金过活的工人所属的阶级)的本质并不存在,真正存在的只是一个其中心可用特征或特点来显示,但其外延却难以区分的范畴。"11同样,主导法国大革命的"第三等级"也不是作为一个统一的资产阶级登上历史舞台,其构成极为复杂。英国历史学家乔纳森·伊斯雷尔在《法国大革命思想史》这本重要著作中揭示了一个他的前辈埃德蒙·柏克也曾发现了的事实:


"历史学家时常提到第三等级的代表中并无农民、手工业者或工人。然而同样令人震惊的是,即使农民和工人确实缺席,1789年聚集在凡尔赛的第三等级代表中也同样缺少商人、银行家、企业家或其他具备'资产阶级'属性、代表社会中上阶层的主要职业团体代表。埃德蒙·柏克在伦敦深入观察大革命,对第三等级的成分深感愤慨。让他感到恐怖的是有钱人、大地主和高级神职人员在这次会议中惊人地缺席。如果第三等级要仿照英国的方式成立下议院,它必须能够代表对土地、金钱和职位的占有,这一属性在巴黎那个孕育革命的领导层当中如此欠缺,宛如阴谋。"12


柏克的愤慨是有道理的,法国大革命被公认为是资产阶级革命,事实上却缺少资产阶级的真正代表。在国民议会里代表第三等级发表时政意见的人,主要是演说家、律师、法官、记者、作家、家庭教师、书商和其他专业人士,包括从第一和第二等级中叛逃而来的中下层教士与贵族。西哀士发表的《什么是第三等级》,堪称是法国资产阶级的独立宣言,影响巨大,他本人的身份却是一个教区的代理主教和执法官。出生于贵族家庭的米拉波,是革命初期最重要的政治思想家和行动者,曾参与起草《人权宣言》并担任国民议会主席,因为对法国大革命作出了巨大贡献而在死后被葬于先贤祠,但后来又因为被揭露出与国王秘密勾结而被迁出了先贤祠。大革命初期的"三头联盟"——巴纳夫、迪波尔和拉梅特,前者曾任格勒诺布尔大理院检察官,后二者均是来自于贵族阶层,他们在第三等级阵营中率先主张实现君主立宪制,致力于奠定一个"自由的和有限制的君主制政府",反对授予国王享有对国民议会的否决权。巴纳夫在大革命期间写的《法国革命引论》,是对大革命的即时性观察与思考,他认为:"要判断大革命的性质并且指明它的那些真正原因,有必要把眼光放得更远一些,应当看到我们在一个更广阔的体系里所占有的位置,也就是要冷静地观察从封建社会到现在一直在导致欧洲一些政府连续地改变其形式的这种普遍运动,人们将会清楚地觉察到我们现在已经达到的这一点和引导我们达到这一点的普遍原因。"13巴纳夫的这个判断和后来基佐、米涅、米什莱的看法是大体一致的,他们都是在欧洲思想启蒙和政治变迁中把握到了君主制改革的时代潮流。第三等级是因为拥有了孟德斯鸠、伏尔泰、爱尔维修、卢梭所传授的思想和知识而走在了革命的前列,革命与其说是来源于阶级的对立与冲突,不如说是来源于思想的分化与更新。革命几乎就是在孟德斯鸠、伏尔泰和卢梭之间作出抉择。米什莱在他的不朽著作《法国大革命史》中做过精辟的概括:"孟德斯鸠书写、阐释了权利,伏尔泰为权利哭泣和呐喊,而卢梭则建立了权利。"14在米什莱看来,大革命在"思想高层领域"已经完成,大革命就是要实现卢梭所说的"权利就是人间的帝王"、"普遍意志就是权利和理性",这是所有人的意志(公意)和权利,"所以奴隶们,崛起吧!"15


法国大革命期间现实的阶级关系所呈现出来的错综复杂的情况,表明抽象的阶级斗争理论根本不足以有效解释革命进程中不同政治力量的组合与博弈。最初在三级会议中显示出来的三个等级之间难以调和的矛盾以及截然分明的对立状态,很快被革命进程所瓦解,不断地有教士和贵族投身于革命的怀抱,以至于像米拉波、迪波尔、拉梅特这样的贵族成为革命的领导者。这似乎就是从阶级对立走向了阶级融合,包括国王路易十六在革命初期也选择了和第三等级合作的立场,支持君主立宪改革。正是基于大革命初期的良好态势,米拉波在1789627日发出这样的感慨:"多么幸运啊,这次伟大的革命没有付出暴行和眼泪的代价!……历史专门叙述凶残的兽行延续得太久了……我们可以指望,我们正在开辟人道的历史。"16但是,这样的"阶级合作"和非暴力的形势并没有持续多久,米涅在他的《法国革命史》中观察到革命进程中所出现的重大危机与转变:"是谁的过错使革命在大好形势下开始后,又急转直下走下坡路,革命是怎样把法国变成共和国的,而在共和国的废墟上又是怎样建立起帝国的。"17米涅认为,革命的这几个阶段几乎都是不可避免的,而其背后"有那么一股不可抗拒的力量",这个力量究竟是怎么构成的呢?难道是阶级对立和冲突?更深层次的问题是,革命形势的急转直下直至共和国重新被拿破仑帝国所取代,出乎了所有革命者的预想。难道这也是阶级斗争的结果?美国学者谭旋在他的著作中提出了下述看法:


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"1789年的宏大理想为何到1793年却变成了暴力和恐怖?时任议员兼部长的多米尼克·加拉这些写道:'我们的后代将同时惊诧于我们的恐怖罪行和美德。我们做出的愚蠢之举与所奉行的行为准则大相径庭,这将是最令人费解的部分。'两百多年来,历史学家一直在试图理解大革命中这一古怪的两极化现象。如何解释大革命后形势迅速演变为国家主导的排异和镇压?革命者们为何开始自相残杀?在与这个时代相关的所有问题当中,恐怖的起源或许是最难厘清也最不为人知的一个。"18    


现在可以断言,在法国大革命的实际进程中,米涅所说的决定革命形势急转直下的"那股不可抗拒的力量",其实就是谭旋所指出的"两极化"现象,这个"两极化"现象在最宽泛的意义上可以被归结为两个对立阶级的冲突,但实际上,"两极化"现象更多地是体现在同一个阶级内部,主要是在第三等级内部形成的思想和政治分化,是革命者内部形成的不同派别,并最终是在不同派别之间形成的你死我活的斗争——革命者的自相残杀。革命偏离了正确轨道而走上了恐怖与专制的不归路,实际上是左右之争的结果,或者更准确地说,是革命不断左翼化的结果。


基于左右之争的分析框架在米涅和米什莱的著作已有广泛运用,"左派"和"右派"的概念被他们不断地用来描述国民议会、制宪会议和立法会议中的不同派别之争。在国民议会期间(1789617日由三级会议改称国民议会),由于贵族和僧侣被迫加入国民议会,使得三个等级之分在法律上不复存在,事实上也已消失。贵族和高级僧侣基于共同利益在国民议会中成为右派,他们也被称为"王政派",政治主张是继续维持君主制;而左派则是由"平民派"组成,他们的主要代表人物就是巴纳夫、迪波尔和拉梅特所组成的"三头联盟",政治主张是实现君主立宪制。到了立法会议期间(1891101日国民议会转为立法会议),按照米涅的观察:"和制宪会议一样,立法会议中也有一个右派、一个左派和一个中间派,性质却完全不一样。"19不一样之处就在于,原来国民议会中的右派——王政派已整体出局,代表左派的"三头联盟"则因为继续坚持君主立宪的主张而成了新的右派,他们被称为"斐扬派"(也译为"福扬派"),其代表性人物除了"三头联盟",还包括著名的西哀士(第三等级的精神领袖)、拉法耶特(时任国民军总司令)和巴伊(时任巴黎市长)。特别值得一提的是,后来的雅各宾派革命领袖罗伯斯庇尔在这个时候也是完全支持君主立宪。在立法会议中和斐扬派相对抗的左派是"吉伦特"党人:"左派组成的党叫做吉伦特党,在革命中它只是从中产阶级转向人民大众的一个过渡党派。它当时没有任何颠覆政府的企图;但是它主张用一切办法保护革命,这一点和主张只用法律保护革命的立宪派不同。"20米涅的这个观察符合实际,吉伦特派较之于斐扬派之所以"左",就在于前者的政治主张更激进,要求彻底结束君主制、实现共和制,而后者的政治主张相对保守,要求实现君主立宪制。正是在吉伦特派对抗斐扬派这个时期,罗伯斯庇尔从君主立宪主义转向了共和主义,开始主导比吉伦特党人更激进的革命路线,一个更加急速也更加极端的"左翼化"时期开始了。


综上所述,在法国大革命中可以清楚地发现左翼力量始终在主导着革命进程,决定着革命形势的变化和革命向恐怖政治的演变。在国民议会期间,占据左翼位置的是斐扬派,他们是用君主立宪制来反对王政派的君主制。在立法会议期间,占据左翼位置的是吉伦特派,他们是用共和制来反对斐扬派的君主立宪制。到了国民公会期间(1892921日国民公会开幕),占据左翼位置的是山岳派,他们是用雅各宾专政——米涅称之为罗伯斯庇尔"暴政"——来反对吉伦特派的共和制。他们之所以这样做,是因为在国民公会最初选出的749名议员中,吉伦特派有160人,山岳派只有140人,大多数议员属于中间派(被称为平原派)。在如此悬殊的政治力量对比中,山岳派根本无法通过正常的立法程序来实现自己激进的革命主张,所以,他们选择通过发动"无套裤汉"的民粹力量以形成一个"院外"的巨大外部压力,进而选择通过暴力、恐怖和专制的方式来消灭政敌以达到控制整个国家机器的目的。1893311日,国民公会决定成立特殊革命法庭,该机构有权在不允许上诉的情况下对被告作出审判,丹东为此发表了严酷的评论:"让我们站在前人的错误之上!我们必须变得残暴、变得面目可憎,以免我们的人民变成这样。"21罗伯斯庇尔在同年12月将宪法秩序和革命秩序做了对比:"后者屈从的一致规则更少,因为革命秩序形成的局势如暴风骤雨般动荡不安,而且,它被迫不断利用新的和快速的资源,应对新的和紧迫的危险……我们必须组织自由的专制来摧毁国王的专制。"22就是在"自由"的专制之下,罗曼夫人以自己的生命控诉:自由,多少罪恶假汝而行!


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恐怖统治自179395日正式宣布开始,至1794728日被"热月政变"终止,在这十个月的时间里,大革命就是在"左翼化"逻辑的支配下,形成了米涅所说的革命急转直下的转变和革命不断趋于激进化的态势以及最终走向军事独裁的结局:"从1789年的立宪派到吉伦特党。从吉伦特党到山岳党,从山岳党到热月反动派,从反动派到督政府,从督政府到两院,从两院到军事独裁,一直是以暴易暴。"23左翼化就是革命的激进化、暴力化和恐怖化,雅各宾派的领袖们,罗伯斯庇尔、丹东、马拉、库东、圣茹斯特,几乎个个都是残忍嗜血的活动家,在他们统治的十个月时间里,恐怖统治并没有明确的目标和政策,实施过程也没有特定的程序,主旨就是支持罗伯斯庇尔及其革命政府,"主要的方法是向所有事实上或者有可能对共和国构成威胁的人施加死亡威胁。"24据不完全统计,革命恐怖时期法国全国至少有30万名被捕的嫌疑人,经由司法流程被处以死刑的人数近17000人,这个数字并不包括那些在监禁期间未经审判就被秘密处决的人,这一时期的死亡总数可能高达4万人以上。更为触目惊心的是,所有阶层无一例外地被大规模的处决浪潮所冲击:超过四分之一的受害者是农民,近三分之一是工匠或工人,只有8.5%的受害者是贵族,6.5%是神职人员。25恐怖政治的高潮是在革命者内部启动了自我毁灭的机制——革命者内部的自相残杀,"革命吞噬了自己的儿女,它杀死了它的兄弟,它在撕咬自己的肠子,它已经成为最恶毒、最可怕的怪物。"26179445日,丹东和他的盟友德穆兰等被革命法庭判处死刑,送上断头台。同年728日,罗伯斯庇尔、圣茹斯特、库东等最后一批革命者也招致同样结局,被送上断头台。断头台成为大革命的一个象征,它令人不寒而栗的刀锋,昭示着革命者和国王、贵族、僧侣以及普罗大众的共同命运:成为革命的断头鬼。


弗朗索瓦·傅勒把米什莱称之为法国大革命"最伟大的说情者",在米什莱倾注了巨大心血的不朽著作《法国大革命史》中,大革命是以罗伯斯庇尔之死为终结,而作为革命事业继承者的拿破仑则被他排除在革命的史诗之外。他深深地同情大革命中涌现出来的那些英雄:米拉波、韦尼奥、布里索、丹东,包括罗伯斯庇尔,他期待后人通过阅读他的著作"把他们视为一个握手言和的整体,而不再是相互对立的敌人。"27他为此特别提到了卡米尔·德穆兰在革命初期提出的一个"令人动心却又不切实际的提议"——在拥护大革命的作家中建立联盟。提议之所以不切实际,就是因为左右对立和"左翼化"的逻辑严重撕裂了革命联盟。同样,米什莱期待左翼和右翼在革命之后能够握手言和,也是不切实际的。不仅是在米什莱的时代,革命自复辟时期以来在一个更大的范围内持续展开,社会变革和政治变革的革命化逻辑没有变,革命的左翼化逻辑也没有变;而且,在大革命已经结束了两百年之后,按照雷蒙·阿隆的描述,不管是否认为大革命是壮烈还是恐怖,是灾难的渊薮还是革命的史诗,它毕竟把法国的历史一分为二。左翼和右翼的对立已经造成了"两个法国"的对立:一个是右派的法国,让人想到家庭、权威和宗教,使人尊重历经数个世纪缓慢形成的秩序;另一个是左派的法国,让人想到平等、理性和自由,使人深信人类有能力根据科学知识来重建社会。在经历了长期的左右对峙并见证了法国左翼运动从兴盛到衰败的历史,阿隆断言"永恒的左派的精神实际上已经死亡",可能也是过于乐观了,因为左派这只"不死鸟"不只是在法国上空飞翔了两百多年,而且从欧洲飞到了东方,成为世界革命以及所有激进主义思潮的共同道德象征。


由此联想到米什莱在他的著作的最后所言:"法国人民的博爱让我们得以看到上帝,希望这短暂一窥,能让我们所有人——无论是作者还是读者——从那个时代的创痛中重新站起来,接过父辈们用热血点燃的那簇英雄之火,让它长明不灭。"28这是革命的先驱们对后来的革命者的精神召唤?还是历史学家对未来的革命的预言?生活于米什莱时代的人们肯定无法想象,在罗伯斯皮尔死了之后一百二十三年,公开以法国大革命的精神传人自居的俄国布尔什维克党人,开启了一场更大规模和更为血腥的革命,雅各宾专政未竟的事业在苏维埃政权的统治时期终于得以实现,法国大革命的长明不灭之火在东方大地上形成了燎原之势。



本文注释:

 

1 [法]让-弗朗索瓦·傅勒《思考法国大革命》,孟明译,生活·读书·新知三联书店,2005年,第109页。傅勒《思考法国大革命》上篇主题:法国大革命结束了。参阅同上书,第43页。
[美]托尼·朱特:《责任的重负——布鲁姆、加缪、阿隆和法国的20世纪》,章乐天译,中信出版社,2014年,第5页。参阅[法]罗杰·夏蒂埃:《法国大革命的文化起源》,洪庆明译,译林出版社,2015年,原编者序,第4页。转引自孟明:傅勒《思考法国大革命》中译本序,第23-24页。6《马克思恩格斯选集》第一卷,人民出版社,1995年,第272页。[法]阿尔贝·索布尔:《法国大革命史》,马胜利等译,张芝联校,北京师范大学出版社,2015年,序言,第1页。参阅同上书,第1页。引文见《马克思恩格斯选集》第一卷,第277页。9《马克思恩格斯选集》第四卷,人民出版社,1995年,第547页。10《马克思恩格斯选集》第四卷,人民出版社,1995年,第250页。11 [法]雷蒙·阿隆:《知识分子的鸦片》,第62页。12 [英]乔纳森·伊斯雷尔:《法国大革命思想史:从<人的权利>到罗伯斯庇尔的革命观念》,米兰译,民主与建设出版社,2020年,第39页。13 [法]安托万·巴纳夫:《法国革命引论》,王令愉译,王养冲校,华东师范大学出版社,1989年,第1页。14 [法]儒勒·米什莱:《法国大革命史》卷一,李筱希译,吉林出版集团股份有限公司,2020年,导言,第113页15 同上书,导言,第114、115页。16 转引自[苏]列夫·托洛茨基:《俄国革命史》第一卷,丁笃本译,商务印书馆,2018年,第163-164页。17 [法]米涅:《法国革命史》,北京编译社译,郑福熙校,商务印书馆,1977年,导论,第2 页。18 [美]谭旋:《暴力与反暴力——法国大革命中的恐怖政治》,黄丹璐译,山西人民出版社,2019年,序言,第ii页。19 [法]米涅:《法国革命史》第107页。20 同上书,第107页。21 转引自[美]谭旋:《暴力与反暴力——法国大革命中的恐怖政治》,第276页。22 转引自[英]伊恩·戴维森:《法国大革命:从启蒙到暴政》,鄢宏福、王瑶译,天地出版社,2019年,第205页。23 [法]米涅:《法国革命史》,第337页。24 [英]伊恩·戴维森:《法国大革命:从启蒙到暴政》,第208页。25 参阅[美]谭旋:《暴力与反暴力——法国大革命中的恐怖政治》,第344页。据伊恩·戴维森的引述,美国历史学家唐纳德·格里尔估计死亡人数为50万人,马蒂厄和索布尔认为在30万人。"将这些数字与法国当时的2800万人口相对比,估计被捕人数最高达到总人口的1.8%左右,相当于成年男性总人口的5%。"参见[英]伊恩·戴维森:《法国大革命:从启蒙到暴政》,第209页。26 曾经支持雅各宾派和山岳派的议员吕奥的看法,转引自同上书,第344页。27 [法]儒勒·米什莱:《法国大革命史》卷一,1868年作者序,第36页。28 [法]儒勒·米什莱:《法国大革命史》卷二,第447页。


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END

2021年10月29日星期五

台湾总统蔡英文接受CNN专访(中英文/全文)


中華民國110年10月28日

蔡英文總統日前接受「美國有線電視新聞網」(CNN)專訪,針對區域及臺海情勢、臺美關係、兩岸關係、臺灣國際參與、錯假訊息攻擊、婚姻平權、半導體產業發展及全球供應鏈、氣候變遷及能源轉型等議題,回應媒體提問。

在正式專訪問答前,針對臺灣近日所面臨之複雜區域情勢,總統表示,臺灣的故事是堅韌不屈的奮鬥史,我們將堅定抵禦中國的軍事威脅,且世界不能缺少臺灣這股良善力量。

總統談話全文:

今年的國慶講話,我告訴臺灣人民,臺灣正面臨區域的複雜情勢,以及空前的挑戰。我注意到,有部分國際媒體報導,臺灣人面對挑戰時,冷靜而不焦慮。我想我們今天就從這裡開始談起。

In this year's National Day address, I told the people of Taiwan that Taiwan is facing a complex regional landscape and unprecedented challenges. I've noticed that some international media reported on the Taiwanese people's calmness and not becoming anxious in the face of challenges. I think this can be a good starting point for our conversation today:

臺灣的故事是堅韌不屈的奮鬥史。面對近來中國人民解放軍的軍事活動,外界不禁要問,為什麼臺灣人民可以保持冷靜,一切如常。這並不是臺灣人對日益加劇的軍事活動無感,事實上,我們冷靜但也警覺,因為自第二次世界大戰結束後七十多年以來,臺灣人歷經的政治或其他方面的挑戰和危機從沒少過。

The story of Taiwan is one of resilience. Recent PLA military activities have made people outside ask why Taiwanese people remain calm and business goes on as usual. It's not that Taiwanese people are not sensitive to the much intensified military activities of the PLA. In fact, we are calm but alert. It is because the Taiwanese people have never been short of challenges and crises, political or otherwise, in the past seven decades since the end of World War II.

例如,1958年中國企圖軍事入侵金門的823砲戰、1970年代退出聯合國和外交斷交潮、長達38年的戒嚴時期、1996年的臺海飛彈危機,以及1997年的亞洲金融風暴,我們也度過了2003年的SARS,並控制住這次COVID-19的疫情。

For instance, the attempted Chinese military invasion of Kinmen in 1958, loss of UN membership and most of our diplomatic allies in the 1970s, 38 years of rule under martial law, the missile crisis in 1996, and the financial crisis in 1997. We also survived the SARS epidemic in 2003, and the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic.

臺灣克服了一次次的挑戰,在此同時,我們從貧窮走到繁榮,從威權走到民主。臺灣的歷史告訴我們,只要我們意志堅定,相信自己,一定會找到屬於自己的生存興盛之道。這就是臺灣的「韌性」。

Taiwan has again and again come through challenges. At the same time, we have progressed from poverty to prosperity, and advanced from authoritarianism to democracy. The history of Taiwan tells us that if we are firm and believe in ourselves, we will definitely find our own path to survive and thrive. And this is the resilience of Taiwan.

雖然我們面對中國不斷增強的威脅,我們的經濟仍以相當驚人的速度持續成長,獲國際機構評比為全球最具競爭力的經濟體之一。我們有強大的高科技產業、高素質且全球化的勞動力,以及開放、透明、健全的市場。

While we are under increasing threats from China, our economy continues to grow at a very impressive rate and is rated by international institutions to be one of the most competitive economies in the world. We have a strong high-tech industry, a high-caliber and globalized workforce, and an open, transparent, and healthy market.

我們已經向世界證明,我們不但挺過來了,還是全球經濟和供應鏈不可或缺的夥伴。

We have actually proven to the world that we are not only surviving well, we are also an indispensable part of the global economy and supply chain.

我們想要成為世界的積極參與者和助力;當然,臺灣的持續生存和繁榮需要全世界的支持。民主和自由是我們的生活方式,也是我們和世界連結、交友之道。

We want to be an active participant and a helpful force to the world; and of course, we need the support of the world for the continued survival and prosperity of Taiwan. Democracy and freedom is our way of life, and how we make friends and connect with the world.

我們每天面對中國在臺海及區域的軍事擴張,中國從未放棄對臺的軍事企圖。我要強調,「臺灣不會屈服於壓力,也不會冒進」。但是,如果我們的民主和生活方式遭受威脅,臺灣必將竭盡全力捍衛自己。

We are faced with China's military expansion in the Taiwan Strait and in the region every day. China has never abandoned its military ambition toward Taiwan. I want to emphasize that Taiwan will not bend to pressure, nor will it turn adventurist. But if our democracy and way of life are threatened, Taiwan will do whatever it takes to defend itself.

我們將持續強化自我防衛能力,並提升不對稱戰力。臺灣也準備好和區域行為者合作,確保區域和平穩定與繁榮發展。

We will continue to increase our self-defense capabilities and asymmetric warfare capabilities as well. Taiwan is also prepared to work with regional actors to ensure regional peace, stability, and prosperous development.

然而,更大的挑戰是,境外勢力利用諸如錯假訊息、滲透等手段,分裂臺灣社會,這是臺灣每天所面臨的重大挑戰。當外部勢力企圖用臺灣的民主制度來傷害臺灣的民主生活方式時,臺灣人民已變得更有意識、也更有能力應對這樣的侵擾行徑。我們願意和遭受此類侵擾的國家分享經驗。我要說的是,這樣的挑戰不會很快就結束,只要中國的企圖心還在,挑戰就永無盡頭。

However, a bigger challenge comes from the disinformation, infiltration, and other tactics deployed by external forces to polarize Taiwan's society. This is a major challenge that Taiwan faces every day. As external forces attempt to use Taiwan's democratic system to disrupt Taiwan's democratic way of life, the Taiwanese people have become more aware and capable in responding to such corrosive behavior. We have experiences which we would like to share with other countries faced with such intrusions. However, I want to say that this challenge will not end soon. It will last as long as China's ambition is there.

當威權政權展現擴張的企圖,民主國家應該合作,捍衛共同的價值,而臺灣就站在全球民主社群的最前線。

When authoritarian regimes demonstrate expansionist intentions, democratic countries should come together to safeguard their shared values. Taiwan stands on the front lines of the global democratic community.

臺灣也是全球供應鏈安全、可靠的合作夥伴,是值得信賴的國際貿易夥伴。

Taiwan is also a secure and reliable partner in global supply chains, and a trustworthy partner in international trade.

在我們開始致力維護共同利益、捍衛共同價值之際,臺灣就處在關鍵的位置上。我相信,世界不能缺少臺灣這股良善力量。

Taiwan is situated in a critical position, as we all embark on the endeavor to protect our common interests and defend our shared values. I believe the world cannot do without Taiwan, a force for good.

 

總統問答內容如下:

問:昨天在寺廟裡,您說民主難免紛亂,但值得捍衛。我認為這真的非常重要,因為臺灣的民主也有紛亂的狀況,在議場上爭吵。您正好相反,準備周全,如此精準,但當這個體制遭受攻擊時,您會加以捍衛,您要傳達給世界的訊息為何?

Q: You said something at the temple yesterday. That democracy is messy but it is worth defending. And I thought that was really, really important, because here in Taiwan democracy is messy. People have brawls in the parliament. You are the opposite of that. You are just so prepared and precise. And yet you are defending this system at the time that it is truly under attack. What is your message to the world?

總統:人們有時對民主制度會有所疑慮,因為民主有時候會造成混亂,民主體制可能沒有預期的那麼有效率,民主過程可能還很冗長,但我們的經驗是,民主制度或許有讓人批評之處,但「民主仍然是最好的制度」。

A: People have doubts about democratic systems, because sometimes it can create chaos and democratic institutions may not be as efficient as you want them to be. Democratic processes may be tedious, but the experience we have is that despite all of these things you want to be critical about, a democratic system is still the best.

 

問:您認為民主受到攻擊嗎?

Q: Do you feel democracy is under attack?

總統:是的。因為每天都有如此多的錯假訊息,人們各有所圖在發動這些錯假訊息,基本上,是想擾亂政府。

A: Here it is. Every day there are so many disinformation campaigns going on here. People carry out all these campaigns with different intentions. But essentially they want to disrupt the government.

 

問:錯假訊息的源頭?

Q: Where is disinformation coming from?

總統:境內、境外都有。

A: From all the sources, externally and internally.

 

問:是來自中國?來自中國大陸?

Q: Is it from China? From mainland China?

總統:有些來自中國。

A: Some of the attacks are from China.

 

問:您認為目的是在製造對您政府的質疑嗎?

Q: Do you think the purpose is to create doubt in your government?

總統:是的,也是製造對民主的質疑。

A: Yes, and create doubt in democracy.

 

問:您們擁有全世界最自由開放的網際網路,這會讓您們更容易受到錯假訊息的攻擊嗎?

Q: You have one of the most free and open internet systems in the whole world. Does that make you more vulnerable to the source of these attacks?

總統:在某種程度上,是的。因為網路上有太多的訊息,人們太習慣在網路上接收訊息、閱讀新聞。網路上流傳的訊息,有時沒有經過權威人士或可靠人士的證實或確認。如果不快速澄清或糾正錯誤,就會擔心人們可能會被誤導。

A: To a certain extent, that is right. There is so much information flowing around on the internet, and people are so used to going on the internet to receive information to read news. Sometimes some information is not checked or confirmed by people with authority or credible people. If you are not fast enough to make clarifications or correct whatever mistake, you are concerned that people may be misled.

 

問:貴國政府對錯假訊息的因應,不是審查或關閉,而是更加透明?

Q: Your government's response to disinformation has not been to censor it or to shut down, but actually to become more transparent.

總統:是的,沒錯。這就是我們從COVID-19 疫情中所學習到的。我們設立中央指揮中心,每天召開疫情說明的記者會,回答媒體或民眾的所有問題,澄清一切,以免民眾被誤導。

A: Yes, and this is what we have learned from the COVID-19 exercise. We set up a command center which gives a news brief every day. They have sat down and answered all of the questions from the press or the general public. They want to clarify everything that needs to be clarified so that people will not be misled.

 

問:一個2,300萬人口的小島如何抵禦一個15億人口、軍事花費是臺灣 15 倍的威權政體?

Q: How does a small island of 23 million people defend itself against one and a half billion people of an authoritarian regime that spends 15 times than what you do in defense?

總統:我認為,最重要的是臺灣人民的意志、對民主自由的信念,以及保衛我們所擁有的民主自由和民主生活方式的意志,這是所有臺灣人民認為值得捍衛的事情。

A: I think the most important thing is the will of the people here and their belief in democracy. The will to defend our democratic freedom and democratic way of life. This is something all Taiwanese believe in, which is worthwhile defending.

 

問:您說「人民的意願」,是指參與民主過程?還是入伍從軍?

Q: When you say people participate in the democratic process, do you mean enlisting in the military?

總統:是指各個面向。參與民主過程很重要,這樣人們的聲音才能被聽到,人民的意見在民主過程中很重要。如果人民有意願保衛臺灣,我認為年輕一代,正如民調顯示,覺得他們有義務當兵,或者擔任社會很重要的一員,挺身捍衛臺灣的民主。

A: In every aspect. It is important for them to participate in the democratic process, so that they can get their voice heard. Their opinions matter in a democratic process. Also, if people have the will to defend Taiwan, many polls suggest that the younger generation think that they have an obligation to defend it as a soldier or as an important member of society, to defend Taiwan's democracy.

 

問:隨著逐步取消徵兵制,有些人說,臺灣必須成為實質上的軍政國家,支出更多國防經費,才能因應中國的軍事升級。您提到輕鬆的心情,和臺灣人民雖然保持警戒,但生活依然如常。您認為臺灣人民是否了解,一旦北京決定要收回他們認為是自己的,在這情況下,可能會發生的事?

Q: But you are phasing out conscription. Some have said that Taiwan will have to essentially be a garrison state and spend so much more on defense and actually engaging China in a sort of military escalation. You talked about the relaxed mood and the fact that Taiwan people are vigilant but they go on with their lives. Do you think the people of Taiwan are aware of what could happen if Beijing decided this is when they are taking back what they think is theirs?

總統:如我說過,我們並未對當前情勢鬆懈。實際上,民眾對於威脅的嚴重性相當有所感受。重要的是,我們沈著而警覺地面對情勢,因為我們經歷過許多挑戰和危機,人民現在都相當有韌性,相信我們做得到,信守我們認為十分珍貴的價值。

A: But as I have said, we are not relaxed about the situation now. In fact, people are sensitive enough to know the seriousness of this threat. But we are calm and very alert to the situation. Because we have gone through so many challenges and crises in the past. People are generally very resilient now, and they believe in what we can do and believe in the values that are considered very valuable to us.

 

問:今天的臺灣是否比2016年您上任時更安全?

Q: Is Taiwan more safe today than it was when you became President in 2016?

總統:這要看如何定義。中國的威脅日益加劇,但是臺灣人民了解當前處境,我們必須更加團結,並準備好捍衛我們所擁有的一切。這很重要。我們需要讓大家知道我們的處境,為將來做好周全的準備。國際社會也更加關注臺灣和臺海局勢。我們獲得越來越多的國際支持,這對臺灣人民來說十分重要,也鼓舞人心,讓大家更有信心,只要我們竭盡所能,外界就會幫助我們。

A: Depending on how you define it. If it is the threat from China, it is increasing every day. But there is increasing awareness of the situation we are in. And a will is generating now that we will have to be more united and prepared to defend whatever we have now. This is important. You need people to know where we are—what we are in—and get prepared for whatever may happen in the future. Also, the international community now is more aware of the situation in Taiwan and the Taiwan Strait. We see more and more support from the international community, which is very important and encouraging to people in Taiwan. It makes them feel more confident. When we do what we can, the people outside will come to our aid.

 

問:美國的角色是?

Q: What is the role of the US?

總統:美國是臺灣產品的最大市場,且幾乎是我們採購防衛武器的唯一來源,美國還提供臺灣各種支援,讓我們能夠成為區域或國際的行為者,不那麼孤立。

A: The US has been our largest market for Taiwanese products. And almost our only source where we can acquire military weapons to defend ourselves. They also provide support to Taiwan so that we will be able to become an international actor or regional actor and less isolated.

 

問:包括派遣美軍人員協助訓練臺灣軍隊嗎?

Q: Does that support include sending some US service members to help to train Taiwanese troops?

總統:我們和美國的合作很廣泛,目的在增強我們的防衛能力。

A: Yes, we have a wide range of cooperation with the US aiming at increasing our defense capability.

 

問:現在有多少美國軍方人員派在臺灣?

Q: How many US service members are deployed in Taiwan right now?

總統:沒有大家想得那麼多。

A: Not as many as people thought.

 

問:像媒體昨天報導的幾十人嗎?

Q: Is it a couple of dozen like the reports yesterday?

總統:我們不討論細節。

A: Let's not be precise.

 

問:這消息流傳出去後,您認為對臺灣和大陸的關係有幫助嗎?或是見諸報導後,您感到擔心?

Q: The fact that this information got out, do you think it is helpful in your relationship with the mainland? Were you concerned then or now that it has been reported?

總統:很多報導中,有些是事實,有些則不是那麼正確。民眾會接收到許多資訊,決策者有責任做正確的決定,不該被單一訊息所影響。

A: Well, there are a lot of reports, some are facts but some are not quite correct. You have so much information around. Decision makers who are responsible for making the right decision should not be affected by any single piece of information.

 

問:美國正在想方設法擴大臺灣參與聯合國。您支持這些討論嗎?您希望臺灣在聯合國扮演更積極的角色嗎?

Q: The United States is looking for ways to try to expand Taiwan's participation in the United Nations. Do you support those discussions? Would you like a greater role at the UN for Taiwan?

總統:當然。這是臺灣所有政黨都支持的立場,我們希望有機會成為聯合國體系有意義的參與者。

A: Of course, that has been a position that is supported by all the political parties here. We want to have an opportunity to be a meaningful participant in the UN system.

 

問:您擔心中國的反應嗎?當您採取作為,而這些大門也敞開後,您是否擔心遭遇反彈?

Q: Do you worry about what China's reaction would be as you take these steps, as these doors are opened? Do you worry that there could be a backlash?

總統:不擔心。我們表達希望成為聯合國體系的一部分,而中國也有他們自己的立場,就讓國際社會去評定。

A: No. I think that it is a situation where we have expressed our hope that we want to be part of the UN system, and China has their story to tell, and it is for the international community to judge.

 

問:美國拜登總統上週說,如果臺灣遭到攻擊,美國會防衛臺灣。有些人認為,他的說法打破了維持過去數十年穩定的長期戰略模糊。當您聽到那樣的說法時,是否也有一樣的顧慮?

Q: When President Biden said last week that the US has the commitment to defend Taiwan in the event of an attack, some have said that it takes away some of the impact of long-standing strategic ambiguity, which has helped maintain stability over the last decades. Did you have that concern when you heard those remarks?

總統:大家對拜登總統的談話有不同的解讀。但是,我說過,我們的處境是不能依片面資訊就做決定,而是必須考量各種狀況、各種因素,才能為人民做出正確的決定。

A: People have different interpretations of what President Biden has said. But as I said, we are in the situation where your decision is not going to be based on a single piece of information—a decision must take into account all the situations and also all the factors, and then you make the right decision for your people.

 

問:如果大陸企圖進犯臺灣,您有信心美國會防衛臺灣嗎?

Q: Do you have faith that the United States would defend Taiwan if the mainland were to try to move on Taiwan?

總統:基於我們和美國長期友好關係,我們也有美國人民、國會與政府的支持,皆給予我們很多助益。我對此有所信心。

A: I do have faith given the long-term relationship that we have with the US, and also the support of the people of the US as well as the Congress and the administration, which has been very helpful.

 

問:您是領導人。就目前情形來說,您說過保衛臺灣是首要之務。

Q: You are the leader of the island. As things stand, you said it is a priority to defend the island.

總統:如果我們有自我防衛的決心,我們會盡全力保衛自己,外界就會來幫助我們,這是中國解放軍是否能成功入侵的重要決定性因素。

A: Let me tell you that if we have the will to defend ourselves and we put in all sorts of efforts, then we can defend ourselves. I think people would come to our aid, and that is a very important determining factor in deciding whether the PLA would succeed in its invasion.

 

問:包括日本把飛彈部署在鄰近臺灣的島嶼上,未來還要派遣軍隊?

Q: Does that include Japan, which is now putting missiles on an island near Taiwan, with troops to follow in the coming months?

總統:臺灣並不孤單,因為我們是民主國家,我們尊重自由,愛好和平,與區域內大多數國家有共同的價值。我們在地理上也具有戰略重要性。所以,我認為確保臺灣安全是區域內國家的共同利益。

A: Taiwan is not alone, because we are a democracy. We respect freedom. We are peace lovers. We share values with most of the countries in the region. Geographically, we are of strategic importance as well, so I think countries in the region have a common interest to make sure that Taiwan is safe.

 

問:如果臺灣的民主被接管,會如何?後果會是什麼?不單指臺灣,而是泛指全世界。

Q: What happens if Taiwan's democracy is taken over? What would be the consequences for not just Taiwan, but for the world at large?

總統:首先,對區域而言,看到臺灣的情形,大家會擔心自己所擁有的民主是否會遭到破壞。並且,也會擔心是否會受到外來勢力的約束,而無法自己做決定。

A: First of all, for the region: the people in the region would be concerned that their own democracy is going to be ruined because they could see the situation in Taiwan. And also, people would be concerned whether they would be subjected to any source of constraint from external sources and therefore be unable to make decisions for themselves.

 

問:您曾指出,臺灣代表的是捍衛民主的未來,這裡發生的事可能改變世界秩序。

Q: You have actually written that Taiwan represents the fight of the future of democracy, and that it could actually change the world order depending on what happens here.

總統:我認為,臺灣像是一座燈塔,兩千三百萬人民每天很努力地保衛自己和民主,確保享有應得的自由。這也是其他人想要的。所以,一旦我們失敗了,這意味著信守這些價值的人們,將懷疑這些價值是否值得奮力爭取。

A: Yes. I think we are a beacon of some sort. Here 23 million people try hard every day to protect themselves and protect our democracy and make sure that people have the kind of freedom they deserve. This is what other people want to have as well. So, if we fail, that means that people that believe in these values would doubt whether these values are worth fighting for.

 

問:您怎麼看待習近平?

Q: What do you make of Xi Jinping?

總統:習近平是一個大國的領導人,可惜的是,這個大國不是一個民主國家,至少現在不是。要治理這樣大的國家不容易,但治理大國的最好制度為何,則取決於領導人。重要的是,領導人認為這樣的大國想和區域及世界的其他國家維持怎樣的關係,想和區域及世界的每個人維持和平關係嗎?還是想站在主導地位,讓每個人都聽他的,聽中國的,但不一定喜歡中國?這是選擇的問題。我相信許多人會說,想和區域及世界其他國家維持和平關係,這也包括臺灣。

A: Xi Jinping is the leader of a very large country. Unfortunately, it is not a democratic country, at least for the moment. It is not going to be an easy job to run a country of that size. But it is the leader's decision as to what sort of system would be best for running a country of that size. But what is important also is the leader's view as to what sort of relationship a country of that size wants to have with the rest of the region and the rest of the world. Does Xi want to have a peaceful relationship with everybody in the region or in the world? Or does Xi want to be in a dominant position so that everybody listens to him, listens to China, and does not necessarily like China? So, it is a matter of choice. I am sure many people would say, "We would like to have a peaceful relationship with the rest of the world and the rest of the region," and that includes Taiwan.

 

問:您有興趣和習主席會談嗎?您希望和他有更多的溝通嗎?

Q: Are you interested in speaking with President Xi? Would you like to have more communication?

總統:多溝通是有幫助的,可以減少和避免誤解,更了解彼此。我們也一再表示,願意和中國對話,這也是在處理兩岸關係時,避免誤解、錯估、誤判的最佳途徑。

A: More communication would be helpful. That would reduce misunderstanding, avoid misunderstanding. We would be able to know each other better, and we have said it again and again that we want to have a dialogue with China, and this is the best way to avoid misunderstanding, miscalculation, and misjudgment in the management of cross-strait relations.

 

問:前任總統曾和習主席會面。您認為自2016年以來,兩岸溝通為何停擺?

Q: Your predecessor did meet with President Xi. Why do you think the communication has really gone sour since 2016?

總統:我認為,情勢變化很大。中國對區域的部署已和以往大不相同,現在更有企圖心,更為擴張主義,因此,過去他們能接受的事情,現在可能無法接受。

A: I think the situation has changed a lot, and China's plan towards the region is very different from before. It is more ambitious, more expansionist, and therefore things that were acceptable to them then may not be acceptable to them now.

 

問:您認為如何才能重啟這條溝通管道?

Q: What do you think it is going to take to get that communication line back open?

總統:我認為這需要相關各方的努力。我們一再表示,對話非常重要,希望與中國建立和平的關係。因此,我們耐心以待,以維持現狀作為兩岸政策的核心,這表示我們有耐心。我們希望與中國進行有意義的交流,以便共同探討減少兩岸歧見的可能性,希望最終能夠找到解決歧見的途徑。

A: I think it requires the efforts of all the parties concerned, and we have said again and again that a dialogue is very important and that we want to have a peaceful relationship with China. Therefore, we would like to be patient, and so we have been maintaining the status quo as the core of our policy, meaning that we are patient. And we want to have a meaningful exchange with China so that we can together explore the possibilities of reducing the differences between the two sides of the Taiwan Strait and hopefully, eventually, be able to find a path to resolve all these differences. 

 

問:您相信有無任何形式的「一中政策」是臺灣人民可能接受的?

Q: Do you believe that the "one China policy" in any form would be acceptable for the people of Taiwan?

總統:有各式各樣的「一中政策」,美國有自己的「一中政策」,而中國有「一中原則」,但在香港體現的「一國兩制」卻毫無意義。

A: Well, there are all kinds of "one China policies." The US has its own "one China policy," but China has the "one China principle" as demonstrated in Hong Kong, and that makes "one country, two systems" meaningless.

 

問:所以您並不相信中國的「一國兩制」真的會在臺灣兌現?

Q: So, you don't believe that China's "one country, two systems" would actually be delivered here in Taiwan?

總統:這是誠信問題。臺灣人民已經明確表示不接受「一國兩制」作為兩岸議題的解方。

A: It is the issue of credibility, and the Taiwanese people have said clearly that they do not accept "one country, two systems" as the formula that can resolve cross-strait issues.

 

問:這正是您以高票贏得連任的關鍵議題。現在面對緊張升高、軍事侵略、錯假訊息,您要採取怎樣的策略來確保臺灣在您接下來的任期以及未來,仍能屹立不搖?

Q: And that was the key issue that caused you to win reelection by a large number. Now the tensions are escalating; you have military incursions and disinformation. What is your strategy to make sure Taiwan remains being Taiwan for the rest of your term and beyond?

總統:我們必須做好良善治理,人民才會對民主有信心。我們必須有效治理國家,並推動經濟發展。

A: We have to perform well with good governance, so that people will have faith in democracy. We have to be effective in running the country and get the economy going.

 

問:2020年成長很快。

Q: Fastest growing in 2020.

總統:是的,沒錯。首先,這正是我們要讓人民知道,一個民主國家和民主政府可以有效率地解決我們面臨的各種難題。其次,我們必須加速國防改革,讓我們有能力自我防衛。基於臺灣和中國的面積差異,臺灣的關鍵在於發展不對稱戰力。第三,我認為最重要的是,我們面臨全球的迅速變遷。各國都面臨一個這樣的問題,有些人們無法在全球迅速變遷的時代中生存,於是,政府必須為這些人們提供各種照顧服務。所以,在接下來兩年半的任期中,我要繼續努力全面改善照顧體系,讓老年人、弱勢族群和年輕人都能受到更好的照顧,年輕人可以從社會安全網中獲得協助,有妥善的社會安全網,他們就會更有競爭力,更願意嘗試新事物。

A: Yes, that's right, and this is exactly what we are trying to tell people—that a democratic country or government can be effective in addressing all sorts of difficulties that we are faced with. Secondly, we have to expedite our military reform, so that we have the ability to defend ourselves, given the size of Taiwan compared to the size of the PRC. Developing asymmetric capabilities is the key for us. Thirdly, I think what is most important is that we are faced with rapid global change, and therefore every country is facing the issue that some people cannot survive in the time of rapid change. As a result, you have to provide care and help these people. So, what I want to do in the next two and a half years is to continue with my effort to improve all the care systems so that elders and the disadvantaged and young people will be better taken care of, so that young people can have a social security net. With this in place, they can become more competitive and willing to try new things.

 

問:您提到,臺灣雖然沒有很多正式的外交盟友,但有很多朋友,還有很多人想要買臺灣製造的晶片。在臺灣爭取國際社會支持的策略上,半導體產業扮演什麼樣的角色?

Q: You mentioned how Taiwan may not have a lot of formal diplomatic allies but does have a lot of friends, and you also have a lot who want chips made in Taiwan. How does the semiconductor industry factor into your goals in terms of getting support globally? 

總統:半導體產業是臺灣的領頭羊產業,代表臺灣有能力生產對世界發展至關重要的產品。而這需要很好的產業基地、很好的基礎建設以及豐沛的人才。這個產業向世界證明,它們的存在非常重要,也同時向世界展現臺灣的成就,展現出我們有很好的產業基地、豐沛的人才。

A: The semiconductor industry is the leading industry here. It represents the ability of Taiwan to produce products that are critical for global development. And that requires a good industrial base, good infrastructure, and abundant supplies of talent. On the one hand, the semiconductor industry has proven to the world that they are very important, and it also demonstrates what Taiwan can achieve, that we have a good industrial base and abundant supplies of talent.

 

問:和大陸的緊張局勢是否對供應鏈造成威脅?

Q: Do the tensions with the mainland threaten the supply chain in any way?

總統:是的,威脅的確存在,但至少在現階段,還在可控制的範圍內。世界認定臺灣半導體產業是他們必須協助且保護的產業。這也是中國需要考慮的,因為中國也需要臺灣製造的半導體產品。

A: Yes, the threat is there, but it is still manageable at this moment. The world looks at the semiconductor industry as something they should help and protect. China must also consider that it also wants semiconductors from Taiwan.

 

問:您是否想過實際再度發生戰爭的可能性,以及臺灣可能會再度遭到攻擊?

Q: Do you ever think about the realistic possibility of war and that Taiwan would be the target?

總統:身為領導人,不能排除任何可能性。而身為領導人,必須為任何可能做好準備。

A: Well, as a leader, you cannot exclude any possibilities. As a leader, you have to prepare for any contingency.

 

問:臺灣現在準備得如何?

Q: So how prepared is Taiwan today?

總統:我們隨時做好準備,我們要讓自己在各方面更加強大,包括國軍戰力、國際支持,以及和世界各國共享價值,讓他們了解臺灣的重要性。

A: We are making ourselves ready. We are trying to be stronger in every aspect, including military capabilities and getting international support, as well as sharing values with other countries so that they understand the importance of Taiwan.

 

問:面對氣候變遷、能源生產困難等威脅,您準備如何因應?

Q: How are you preparing for the threats from climate change, and also difficulties with energy production?

總統:這對臺灣和其他國家都是非常嚴峻的挑戰,臺灣有龐大的產業需要大量水電。我們在規劃達成2050淨零目標的需求時,必須確保產業有足夠的水電供應,以維持營運。所以,這對我們而言,是相當艱鉅的挑戰,但是,我們必須制定、修正並執行計畫,以因應這些挑戰,重點在於優化和執行我們的計畫,期使在2050年如期達成目標。

A: This is a serious challenge for Taiwan as well as for other countries. Taiwan has a large industrial sector, which requires a lot of electricity supply and water. While we are making plans to meet the requirement of net zero by 2050, we also have to make sure industries have enough water and electricity supply to operate. So it is going to be a very difficult challenge for us, but we have to draw, refine, and execute a plan to meet these challenges. It is a matter of refining the plan and executing the plan at a speed that is required for us to meet the 2050 deadline.

 

問:您是亞洲最進步社會之一的領導人,向來支持原住民族及多元性別族群(LGBTQ+)。臺灣是亞洲第一個同婚合法化的國家。您支持的少數族群,是其他國家想要加以同化的,什麼原因促使您支持少數族群,擁抱他們的差異?

Q: You are the leader of one of the most progressive societies in Asia. You support indigenous people and LGBTQ+ people. This is the first place in Asia to legalize same-sex marriage. What motivates your support of minorities and willingness to embrace their differences?

總統:我在年輕人的幫助下完成這一切,因為他們相信這些價值,想要達成這樣的平權。當民進黨開始推動婚姻平權時,我們承受巨大的壓力,有些人因為宗教和其他種種原因而反對,幾乎遭逢政治危機。但是,由於年輕人的堅持,成為我背後的力量。最終,我們得到大法官的支持,以釋憲揭櫫民眾,這是應該做的事。後來,我們進行了公投,很多人認為這是執政黨的挫敗,然而,我們終究完成了立法,讓人民享有婚姻平權。過程非常艱辛,不過,回過頭來看,我認為這一切都值得。

A: I have done all this with the help of young people because they believe in these values. They want to achieve this level of equality. When the DPP started this campaign for marriage equality, we were under a lot of pressure because people were against us for religious and other reasons. We almost had a political crisis. But it is the young people who are very persistent. They are the force behind me. Eventually we had the support of the grand justices, who issued a constitutional interpretation to tell people that this is what to do. And then we had a referendum that some saw as a defeat to us, but eventually we passed the legislation that provides marriage equality. It is a very difficult process, but looking back, I think it is worthwhile.

 

問:當您思考所要留下的政績—我知道您的任期到2024年5月才屆滿,還有很多時間—當人民回顧您兩屆任期時,您最希望他們記得您這位臺灣領導人什麼事?

Q: When you look and think about your legacy, you still have plenty of time left, but when people look back at your two terms, what do you want them to most remember about your time as the leader of Taiwan?

總統:我希望人民記得我盡最大的努力,保護這塊土地,讓這塊土地更安全、更堅韌、人民更團結。

A: I hope they will remember me as someone who makes utmost effort to protect this place, make this place more secure, more resilient, and people more united.

 

問:您認為您更接近目標了嗎?

Q: Do you believe that you are moving closer to that goal now?

總統:正朝著這個方向前進,希望我們速度可以更快些。

A: We are moving toward the that direction, and I hope we can move at a faster speed.

 

問:由於您不必再擔心連任,在剩下的任期中,您想努力但還沒完成的最大目標是什麼?

Q: As you do not have to worry about reelection, what is your biggest remaining goal that you have not done yet?

總統:身為這個國家的總統,我想要達成的是,我在2016年上任時制訂了一個計畫,現在正在執行中,並依需要加以修正,但必須加快速度朝目標前進。基本上,我想做以下這些事情:第一,加速國防改革,這樣我們才能更有能力保護我們的國家。第二,我們想要強化臺灣與世界的連結,基於共享價值結交朋友。我們已經得到許多的國際支持,我們希望得到更多。第三,我想要讓人民凝聚更大的共識。因為,臺灣是移民社會,人民在不同時間來到這裡,對過去擁有不同記憶。我們要以民主方式建立共識,避免外來勢力分裂社會,讓人民更加團結,更有韌性。

A: As to what I want to achieve as the President of this country, I have laid out a plan in 2016 when I became the President. We are implementing the plan and modifying the plan when necessary, so we are moving toward the plan. But we have to move faster to those goals. Essentially, I want to do the following: expedite our military reform so that we can better protect our country; and secondly, we want to make Taiwan better connected with the world, and therefore we want to make friends with shared values. We already have international support, a lot of support already, but we want more. Thirdly, I want to build a stronger consensus among our people here. Taiwan is an immigration society, people came to Taiwan in different times and have different memories from the past. The way we try to avoid the society being divided by external influence is to generate consensus here in a democratic way, so that people will be more united and resilient.

就如我所說的,我們必須確保所有的照護制度都到位,提供一個完善的社會安全網。能源方面也是我們必須加緊腳步的,我們的確有2050淨零的挑戰,因此必須朝這方向加速前進,我們要能夠減少碳排放,同時進行產業結構調整與轉型,我們也必須提升能力,以因應氣候變遷或極端氣候導致的天災。

And as I said, we have to make sure that all our care systems are in place, so that we have a complete social safety net. The other thing on which we have to move faster is the energy area since we have the challenge of net zero by 2050, and therefore we have to move fast in that direction. We have to move fast in carbon emission reduction and carry out industrial restructuring and transition. And increase the ability to respond to natural disasters originating from climate change and extreme weather.

基本上,在強化人民克服困難的意志、軍事實力、經濟、基礎建設等各方面,所有能讓這塊土地更加堅韌的事,都是我在未來任期中想要做的。

Essentially, making this place more resilient—in terms of the will of the people to overcome difficulties, the strength of our military and economy, and the resilience of infrastructure—is what I want to do for the rest of my term.

 

問:以現在的民主臺灣和威權中國來說,您認為雙方能和平共存嗎?或是有一方必須有所讓步?

Q: Do you believe that it is possible for democratic Taiwan and authoritarian China to coexist peacefully, or does one side need to make concessions?

總統:對於臺灣、中國、甚至全世界人民來說,這可能都是最具挑戰的議題。雖然我們的政治體制不同,我們仍可以坐下來談、妥適處理、和平共存。我認為,這是臺灣人民的期待,我希望這是中國的期待,也是區域各成員人民的期待。

A: This is probably the most challenging issue for the people here in Taiwan and for people in China, or even for the people in the world. Although we have differences in political systems, we can still sit down and talk about our differences and make arrangements so that we would be able to coexist peacefully. I think it is the expectation of the people here, and I hope it is the expectation for the people in China, as well as people in the region.

 

問:您有話想跟習主席說嗎?

Q: Do you have a message for Xi?

總統:我期盼他能和臺灣政府及人民有更多的對話,以更了解臺灣的現況,當然我們也會多和中國溝通。

A: I would encourage him to have more dialogue with the government and the people here in Taiwan to get a better feel what it is like in Taiwan. And of course, we will do more to communicate with China.

 

問:有沒有其他想跟全世界朋友說的話,或是其他重要想說的?

Q: Any other message to your friends around the world? Or anything else that is important that you want to say?

總統:臺灣的存在對區域和世界都非常重要,在我們嘗試讓自己更強壯、可以保護自己的同時,我們也需要世界的幫忙,支持臺灣,是一件很有意義的事情。

A: The existence of Taiwan is very important to the region and to the world. While we are trying to make ourselves stronger to protect ourselves, we also need the help of the world. It is meaningful to support Taiwan.

 

問:為什麼世界應該在乎臺灣?

Q: Why should the world care about Taiwan?

總統:大家需要臺灣來證明民主存在的意義,需要臺灣來證明,有國際社會的幫助,即使小,也能在大的一方威脅下生存下來。

A: We need Taiwan to show that democracy works. We need Taiwan to show that with the help of the international community, even a small party can survive while under threat from a bigger party.

 

問:如何推動軍事現代化和發展不對稱戰力?有哪些具體措施?

Q: How to modernize the military and build asymmetric capabilities? What are the specific steps to achieve that?

總統:與中國相比,我們確實較小,所以必須更有效利用資源。我們著重於機動且具致命一擊的武器裝備,這是我們國防改革的重點。我們的軍事制度承續自中國,這個制度是設計來防衛幅員廣大的土地,和保護一個小島的方式不同,所以我們必須改變建軍的傳統思維。

A: We are a smaller place than China, so we need to use our resources more efficiently. We are focusing on weapons that are mobile and lethal as well. This is an area of emphasis in our military reform. We have this military tradition, a system that was developed and inherited from China, which was designed to protect a big piece of land. And the way you protect a big piece of land is very different from protecting a small island. So we have to change the traditional thinking of how the military should be structured.

 

問:我之前看過有關豪豬戰略的資訊…

Q: I was reading something about the porcupine strategy…

總統:大致是這樣的概念。

A: That is the thought.

 

問:臺灣的策略是在獲得其他國家幫助前,試圖自我防衛一段時間?

Q: Is Taiwan's strategy to try to defend for a period of time until you get help from other countries?

總統:我們定會竭盡所能保護自己,但我要重申,得到我們的朋友和理念相近國家的支持,也是重要的事。

A: We definitely want to defend ourselves as long as we can, but let me reiterate -- it is important that we have the support from our friends and also like-minded countries.

 

問:您相信美國、日本會馳援臺灣嗎?

Q: Do you believe the US and Japan would come to Taiwan's aid?

總統:他們會以各自的方式。

A: One way or another.

 

問:您認為我們現在是否捲入區域軍備競賽?

Q: Do you think we are caught up in an arms race in the region right now?

總統:我認為,解決這個問題的最佳方式,是讓各方坐下來談,如何在這個區域和平相處。

A: I think the best way to address this issue is for all the parties to sit down and talk about how we are going to deal with each other peacefully in this region.

 

問:您希望臺灣是這些討論的核心部分嗎?

Q: Would you like Taiwan to be the central part of that discussion?

總統:是的。

A: Definitely.


(https://www.president.gov.tw/NEWS/26294)

英文版:t.ly/8n8T

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