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| 鲍彤 |
法广香港特约记者 郑汉良
前赵紫阳政治秘书鲍彤日前接受《纽约书评》作家伊恩强森的访问时表示，如果他在今天当官，他也难保他不会贪污。被形容眼睛部分失明的鲍彤，在访问中又谈到了温家宝。强森原本想到鲍彤的家进行访问，但被当局拒绝，所以强森和鲍彤两个人在北京的麦当劳快餐店会面，尽管旁边也有国家便服人员的监视。
强森问：目前的领导层将会届满，你在80年代就认识温家宝总理，他当时也为赵紫阳工作。你能说一下他的事情吗？
鲍彤说：温家宝头脑清醒，你说什么，他很快就知道你的意思。如果他上面有一个好的领导，他可以做很多好事。
强森问：你如何看今天的温家宝？
鲍彤说：他非常用功和勤奋，但他并没有完成他要做的事，我相信他自己也不会感到满意，不过他可以有所交代的说：我没有违背我的良心，我并不懒惰。我不想过于对他苛刻，我自己又做了甚么？人家可以说，你没有贪污呀，我说，错了，如果我今天身在这个制度中，难保我也会贪污。你相信我吗？信我吧。
强森问鲍彤：目前这个制度为什么如此腐败，是否有太多的利益团体？
79岁的鲍彤说：不是。只是很多事情我们都管不到。如果你身在这个制度之中，他们会跟你说，你的儿子应该做个CEO吧，但如果你说你不要儿子当CEO，他们会很奇怪的说，他为什么不要。如果你的儿子不想做CEO，那么我们大家的儿子都不能做。然后，他们就会把你从船上推下去，所以只要你在船上，你就肯定贪污。人人都有别墅豪宅，他们也会给你一幢，一幢在北京、一幢在杭州、一幢在苏州，一幢在上海。你说你不要，为什么？甚至连省级领导都有别墅，你能不要吗？完全合法，就拿去吧。我说我没有腐败，那是因为我是80年代的官员，那个时候很不一样，钱和特权都没有现在这么多。
鲍彤进一步指出80年代与现在的分别。他说，那个时候当官，老一辈非常重要，长征的老干部企图阻碍邓小平的经济改革，他们又极力主张武力镇压1989民主运动。现在怎么啦？老一辈还有没有人充当邓小平的角色？你认为像江泽民的前总书记幕后还有影响力吗？
他进一步说，现在已经没有像邓小平的领导，江泽民不是，江在革命中甚么也不是，他没有那种影响力。跟现在跟过去最大的分别，就是以前只有一个人说了算，先是毛泽东，然后是邓小平。
强森问：这样好不好？有人说，没有强人，所以中国过去10年都没有重大的经济改革。
鲍彤认为，总体上是好事。由一人说了算是很可怕的。你可以跟邓小平谈改革，但跟毛呢？他可以决定一切，但他却选了文化大革命和大跃进，至于邓小平嘛，就是六四。
鲍彤又说，现在的领导层比较多出现争持不下的局面，如果他们决定不了，甚么事都不会发生。在美国，如果你贪污你就得辞职，看看尼克森，他有了水门事件，就要辞职。在中国会发生吗？不会的，为什么？因为他们都坐在一条船上，如果船翻了，个个都会摔下海里，我说的「个个」，就是有权有势的人。在中国，他们相互帮忙，如果你有麻烦，我会帮你，如果我有麻烦，你也会帮我，只会出现一如薄熙来这种极端事故，才会有人被踢出政治局的。
鲍彤说，现在有9个政治局常委相互帮忙，这是政治制度，没有人会摇动那条船的。
附录
原文网址http://0rz.tw/ij69x
‘In the Current System, I’d Be Corrupt Too’: An Interview with Bao Tong
Ian Johnson
Sim Chi Yin
Bao Tong, Beijing, June, 2012
Bao Tong is one of China’s best-known political dissidents. In the early to mid 1980s, he was director of the Communist Party’s Office of Political Reform and the policy secretary for Zhao Ziyang, the party’s former general secretary. Just before the 1989 Tiananmen protests were violently suppressed, Bao was detained and charged with revealing state secrets and making counter-revolutionary propaganda. He was convicted in a 1992 show trial and served seven years, all of it in solitary confinement, in Beijing’s notorious Qincheng prison.
Since his release in 1996, Bao has been under close watch, at times under house arrest, and always followed by police whenever he leaves his apartment. Security around him has been particularly tight in recent months, as the Chinese leadership prepares for its 18th Party Congress this fall, which will officially determine the successors to President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao.
I recently met Bao, who is 79 and partly blind, at a McDonald’s in Beijing, after secret police refused me permission to enter his apartment building in the city’s western suburbs.
Ian Johnson: I’m sorry to have caused you so much trouble by visiting you like this.
Bao Tong: You’re sorry? The situation is embarrassing. Well, let’s ignore it. Why can’t I have friends visit? They say I shouldn’t talk before the 18th Party Congress. They’re afraid I’ll talk nonsense. But I think you can decide that. If what I say is nonsense, please ignore it.
When you served in the government, in the 1980s, the older generation was really important. Veterans of the Long March tried to get Deng Xiaoping to reverse economic reforms and many of them supported the 1989 crackdown. What about now? Is there an older generation that still plays that role? Do you think people like former party secretary Jiang Zemin have influence behind the scenes?
There aren’t elders anymore like that. Jiang isn’t a real elder. In the revolution he was a nothing. He doesn’t have that kind of influence. The big difference is that in the past it was one person who decided: Mao and then Deng. Now a few people decide.
Is this good? Some people say the lack of a single strong leader explains why there have been no major economic reforms in the past decade.
Overall it’s a good thing. It’s terrible when just one person decides. You can talk about Deng’s reforms, but what about Mao? He could decide anything but he chose the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. And Deng, well there was June 4 [the night of the 1989 Beijing massacre].
Now the leaders are more deadlocked. If they can’t decide, nothing happens. In America, if you’re corrupt you have to resign. Look at Nixon. He had Watergate and had to resign. In China does that happen? No. Why? Because everyone is in one boat. If that boat turns over, everyone ends up in the water. When I say “everyone” of course I mean the people in power. So in China everyone helps each other out. If you are in trouble, I’ll help you out and if I’m in trouble you help me out. So only in an extreme case like [recently deposed Politburo member] Bo Xilai can someone be pushed out.
Right now it’s nine guys helping each other out [the nine members of the Politburo’s Standing Committee]. That’s the political system. No one wants to rock the boat.
I think that group of men at the other table are watching us.
Forget them. They follow me wherever I go.
The current leadership is set to retire. You knew Premier Wen Jiabao in the 1980s when he also worked for Zhao Ziyang. What was he like then?
His head was clear and he knew what you meant when you talked. If he were under a good leader, he could have done a lot of good things.
What is your view of him now?
He’s hard-working and diligent. But he hasn’t accomplished anything. I’m sure he wouldn’t be satisfied with his work, though in one point he could say, “I didn’t let my own conscience down: I wasn’t lazy.”
But I don’t want to speak badly of him. What did I do? What did I accomplish? People say, “well you weren’t corrupt.” I say, wrong. If I were in the current system, I’d be corrupt too. Do you believe me? Believe me.
Why is the current system so corrupt? Are there too many interest groups?
No, it’s that too many things are off-limits. If you’re in that system, they’ll say, oh, your son should be a CEO. If you say, no, he shouldn’t, then they say, how can he not? If your son can’t be one then ours can’t be one either. Then they’d push you out of the boat. So if you’re in the boat, you’re corrupt. Everyone has a villa and they give you one. One in Beijing, one in Hangzhou, one in Suzhou, one in Shanghai. You say you don’t want it. What? But even the provincial leaders have villas, how can you not? It’s legal, take it. So if I can say I’m not corrupt it’s because I was an official in the 1980s when it was different. There wasn’t so much money and privileges.
So what are your wishes for the 18th Party Congress?
I hope it can solve the current problems. But what they need to do is change the system. If they can then it’s great. So this issue [concerning Bo Xilai] is a chance. If it’s dealt with as a symptom of a systemic problem it’ll be a good opportunity. If it’s not, or they deal with Bo by saying “he’s crazy,” then it’s a lost opportunity. If it’s just go after this person but not the system, then it’s a loss. Then the 19th party congress, then the 20th party congress—they’ll all be the same.
But we on the outside can’t tell what’s happening. Ordinary people can’t act. They can’t speak. They just have eyes and can watch.
Shall we go? I feel I’m inconveniencing you.
How so?
Someone just took our picture.
You can get unlimited coffee refills at McDonald’s, including milk and sugar. We should have more coffee.
I’ll go get some more. [A few moments later…] It’s said that people gain faith with age. You’re old; do you have faith in anything?
In the past I believed in Communism. Now I don’t think it’s worth believing in. During the Cultural Revolution I thought Marxism was good. I knew Lenin and Stalin were bad. Now I just think that Marx had some nice ideas. He said the poor are worth helping. That’s good.
But Marx’s class struggle is a problem. Class struggle happens but there’s also class cooperation. It’s not always struggle. If it’s just struggle, then the society will break down. I think this is a big mistake. I think he also exaggerated things, like wanting to destroy property and opposing all ideologies. If you oppose all ideologies, then do you oppose your own? There are too many contradictions. And the idea that everyone will get what they need, what does that mean? Maybe enough to eat but is everyone supposed to get an iPad? And what about a jPad or a kPad? If you define it as everyone gets their freedom, then I think that’s right. How? By making laws and following laws, equally no matter for who or what position in society. Who’s doing that? America. England. Other countries like that. The countries that don’t follow Marx.
When you were in office, the Chinese government had just reauthorized religion. I was recently rereading the Central Committee’s Document 19 from 1982, which permitted people to assemble for religious worship and to rebuild places of worship after the Cultural Revolution. What do you recall about that?
That was [former party general secretary] Hu Yaobang’s document. He supported reallowing religion. I can only tell you Hu Yaobang’s view. He felt that the old policy was too strict. He wanted to relax it. Other than that I don’t think he had any other thoughts. He wasn’t religious.
The issue of religion now is like this. Think of 1976 when [former Premier] Zhou Enlai died. Everyone went to Tiananmen Square to cry and show their grief. Why did they do so? Because they didn’t believe in Mao Zedong, so they believed in Zhou Enlai. They didn’t know what Zhou stood for but they needed to believe in him because they didn’t believe in Mao anymore. So when he died they cried. Liking Zhou was a way to dislike Mao.
Why do people believe in religion today? It’s because of this society. ‘I don’t like the Communist Party, so I like religion. So I believe in Buddhism or Daoism or Christianity, because I don’t believe in Communism.’ That’s how I see it.
You sound like a true Communist!
Religion can’t solve problems, but it can give you a feeling of succor and relief. Religion is a strange thing. If you don’t believe in the present, you bundle your belief and put it in religion. It’s a form of idealism. But it’s got a lot of nonsense in it too.
So if you haven’t turned to religion, what about writing? Do you want to write a book? What about writing a memoir.
I don’t know if I’ll live much longer! I’ve just gone blind in one eye. It’s very hard for me to read or write.
Your former boss, Zhao Ziyang, wrote one. What do you think of Prisoner of the State?
It’s very good. It’s his real work. I think he spent a lot of time on it. Every character he thought over. It’s not like us chatting and talking. He pored over every word.
I started with him in 1980. He came to Beijing in April and in May I was working for him. I didn’t know him. Someone suggested me and he said “oh, I’ve heard of him, let him come,” and that was it.
I’ll walk you home.
No, don’t. You go directly into the subway. I’ll walk home. I won’t be alone.
June 14, 2012, 12:40 p.m.
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