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2014年6月23日星期一

魏京生:习近平对外挑衅保政权(美国之音专访)

魏京生2014年5月9日接受美国之音有关六﹒四25周年专访

02.06.2014 10:38

(VOA 齐之丰, 魏之)华盛顿 -1989年年初,中国最著名的政治犯,全世界著名的政治犯之一魏京生还在中国西部青海的一所监狱里。他在1979年发表声明,认为中国最迫切需要的是民主化,不能再让独裁统治祸害中国。魏京生随后被判重刑,罪名是"反革命罪"。

中国科学家方励之在1989年初给当时中共最高领导人邓小平写信,要求释放魏京生和其他政治犯,以显示中共政权是一个愿意加入文明世界的政权。

中国知识分子群体随后纷纷致函中共和中国立法机构,要求释放政治犯,实行政治改革,推进民主化建设。

中国知识分子呼吁改革要求民主的行动,成为1989年中国各地以学生为先导的要民主、反腐败全民抗议活动的先声。

在当年的6月3日夜间和4日凌晨,以邓小平为首的中共当局出动军队暴力镇压了在北京的和平示威。有几百人被打死。

1979年被中共当局投入监狱的魏京生在1993年9月被释放。出狱之后,魏京生不改初衷,继续呼吁中国应当实行政治改革,推行民主化。为此,他在1994年4月再度被捕。中共当局在1995年12月再次给他判刑14年,罪名是"阴谋颠覆政府罪"。

1997年,中共政府与美国政府做成交易,将魏京生以出国就医的名义流放到美国。

在八九年的六四镇压25周年纪念日到来之际,魏京生接受了美国之音的专访。他认为,中共政权目前面临严重的生存危机,因此中共领袖习近平才要四处在国际间挑衅。

VOA记者问:"从政治上说,1989年是当代中国一个特殊的年份。在那年元旦过后不到一个星期,中国科学家方励之给中国当时的最高领导人邓小平写信,要求释放你和跟你一样政治犯,从而给89年的中国民主运动揭开了序幕。随后中国的知识分子群体纷纷发表公开信,要求中共释放政治犯,形成了一种运动。这是
1949年中共掌权以来头一次出现这样的运动。当时你在监狱里,知道外面发生的这些事吗?"

*第一次获释前后*

魏京生答:开始的时候不完全知道。但是,也知道一些。为什么呢?是因为在(我被关押的地点)青海那个地方,每年9月份10月份,我们都得买羊肉,否则冬天就买不到了。因为青海冬天很冷。

但是,在那一年(1988年),有一个老警察跟我说,别买羊肉了,你十月一日回家。也就是说,那时候邓小平他们已经作出决定,要释放我。那么耗着,他也难受。我蹲在监狱里,他一点也不好受。因为他天天挨骂。国际社会批评,国内批评。所以,已经有了这个计划,就不让我买羊肉,我就没买。

等着等着,等到十一,还是没有消息。我问怎么回事。他们再跟我说,你要回家过年。但是,(1989年)那年元旦过去了,也没有消息。他们就解释说,因为有很多人写信给中共中央,邓小平就很不高兴,原来释放我的计划就停了。

那个时候,我就听说了这件事。

VOA记者问:你是在哪年获得释放的?获释之后,你见过方励之吗?

魏京生答:见过方先生,是在美国见过。见过几次。都是在纽约的聚会上。

当然,我们都认为,方先生不是为我一个人。发起这场运动也是要把中国推向民主化。这是一个理由。因为从释放政治犯、开放言论自由,这是一个过程。

所以,那时候大家都响应,都写公开信,科技界、文化界、社会各界人士都在写信,形成了一种运动,一种思潮。一开始,是监狱的警察悄悄告诉我的。

*八九民运大有可能成功*

VOA记者问:回头看当时的那场运动,看1989年,以你过去在中国从事民主运动的经验(我们知道你在25年前就参加了中国的民主运动),你觉得1989年的民主运动当时有可能成功吗?

魏京生答:其实有可能。为什么这么说呢?当时,大多数人都支持(当时的中共中央总书记)赵紫阳。

我天天都看电视,很注意呢。我当时在监狱里,但我们那里的电视天天开着。中共前总书记胡耀邦访问青海之后给我们改善生活条件的措施之一就是让我们可以天天看电视。

我当时看电视就注意到了,那时候甚至邓小平的一些亲信,如秦基伟、洪学智,他们都是红军时期跟从邓小平的,连他们都支持赵紫阳,不支持戒严,不支持开枪杀人。他们都是穿着便衣参加5月的戒严大会的。

当时中共党内的情况,我们从电视上也能多少感觉到。大多数人都是站在赵紫阳这边,都觉得中国应当改革,不能是老样子,经济改革,政治不改革。两边不配套,问题越来越多,越来越严重。当时,大多数人都支持赵紫阳。

如果赵紫阳下定决心,这事就办成了。实际上也就是这样,办成了也就办成了。就跟戈尔巴乔夫一样,办成就办成了。

但是,他就退了那么一步,邓小平上来了,就全面倒退。你看九十年代初,连邓小平自己都受不了了,连经济改革都要倒退了。那就是所谓的反动派占了上风了。

VOA记者问:你刚才说赵紫阳退了一步,是什么意思呢?

魏京生答:他不说话。大家都觉得这个事不能让李鹏那么胡作非为,中央应该响应知识界和老百姓的呼吁,开始政治改革,而且要大刀阔斧。

这样就完全把邓小平的权力放在一边。事情就是这样。邓小平在那里挡着,你就是不能改革。他赵紫阳已经有那么大的权力了,为什么不能把他邓小平放在一边?名正言顺,合法。他是合法的领袖,邓小平是不合法的领袖,你为什么要怕他?

而且说实话,赵紫阳不发话,邓小平发话了,军队就只能听邓小平的了。赵紫阳一发话,是合法的。他要是发话,就不是一个(被调去镇压北京抗议拒绝执行镇压命令的38军军长)徐勤先了。可能各个部队的官兵都不执行邓小平的命令。

徐勤先拒绝执行镇压命令当然也是合法的。你邓小平是一个退休的人,你没有权力下令镇压的。而且,按照中共过去的一贯传统,军队不能听一个人下的命令。就是
毛泽东的时候也不行。至少要三个人,毛泽东,周恩来,林彪。后来,换了人,就要赵紫阳,李鹏都签字才行。不能李鹏一个人,加上邓小平两个人就决定了。这不符合中共的制度。所以,徐勤先的反抗是合理的。

*海外是否还有影响力*

VOA记者问:你在中国的时候两次被判刑入狱。你的一举一动都让中国共产党当局感到担心。你的影响力由此而来。现在你觉得你对中国还有政治影响吗?

魏京生答:在1997年的时候,(中共当时的总书记)江泽民跟(当时的美国总统)克林顿做了一个交易,就是美国让江泽民到美国来访问,完全取消对中国的制裁,但条件是释放我。这样,我就来了美国。

当时他们问我的时候,我也仔细考虑权衡过,到底是留在监狱里好,还是出来好。我觉得还是出来好。因为我觉得到了97年的时候,海外的民主运动已经是很低潮,很难影响国际社会。但是,一个国家要是想和平演变,国际社会的压力和影响绝对不可缺少。

所以,我当时觉得,好吧,我就去国外吧。虽然有很多人说,老魏,你不应当出来,你在里面呆着,那年的诺贝尔和平奖就是你的了。但我觉得那个不重要。重要的是要为中国的民主运动起一点推动作用。所以那时候就决定出国。

以前也有人劝我出国。我不同意。但到了97年,我觉得海外需要我,我觉得有责任出来继续发挥影响。我觉得我当时的决定是对的。这十几年在海外我一直在发挥着影响。

虽然国际社会对中国人权的关注是越来越弱了,但大家也可以想一想,没有我们这些海外的人在奋斗,没有各国老百姓的支持,中国还不知道要倒退到什么地步。

*海外艰辛,矢志不改*

VOA记者问:许多中国观众和读者对当年的民主运动的领袖的流亡生活都很关心,作为你个人来说。他们最感兴趣的是,像你这样的人对这种被迫流亡的生活有什么感觉。你可以说说吗?

魏京生答:到海外的所有的人,他们的生活环境都比在国内要困难一些。语言不通,环境陌生,没有亲戚朋友,无形间失去了很多帮助。所以,我们的生活都是很艰苦的。那么,在这种情况下,你要拿出相当大的精力和时间谋生。

然后,还要腾出时间和精力来参加民主运动的各种活动。这是非常不容易的。我觉得大家贡献很大,而且是默默无闻,并不是出名。

我觉得在海外从事民主运动的朋友比国内的一点也不容易。在国内是危险大,但环境好,大家都支持。在国外,都是外国人,人家并不理解你。他们就是好奇。比如,我生病住院,医院的护士跟我说,听说你是个英雄人物啊。他们也就是仅此而已。

国内就不一样了。在国内,你做什么事情,有大量的群众支持,你信心会非常足。而且会有很多人帮助你。

所以说,国内国外从事民主运动各有优越和不利之处。在国外确实是很辛苦,一点也不轻松。

*中共政权生存危机*

VOA记者问:中共政权在1989年对要民主、反腐败的民众镇压之后,又挺立了25年。你觉得中共政权还会挺立25年吗?

魏京生答:习近平能把他这10年混过去都不容易。

我觉得习近平从上台开始,对日本、对南海问题都采取强势态度,跟他政权不稳也有很大的关系。

因为你共产党的历史,上台之后就没停地打仗。共产党一个是没停地政变,一个是没停地打仗。很多人稀里糊涂,说中国没有政变。

怎么没有政变嘛。中共一路政变过来的。最严重的是林彪那一次,差一点搞成了。华国锋搞成了,那就是政变。

说中共没打仗,我们可以数一数,从来就没停过,一直在打,包括邓小平上台就打了一仗,树立权威。

一个专制政权需要很强的权威。习近平现在就没有这个权威。他打仗的动机是很强的。这个全世界都应当警惕。


本报道的原始连接:
http://www.voachinese.com/content/weijingsheng-interview-20140602/1927532.html

有关录像还存放在:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2014/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140602VOAexclusive.mp4

http://youtu.be/Xg3DAzi6uWg

相关图片:魏京生2014年5月9日接受美国之音有关六﹒四25周年专访:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-5/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140509VOAinterview-c-4.jpg
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-5/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140509VOA1-c-4.jpg
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-5/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140509VOA2-c-4.jpg
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Wei Jingsheng: Xi Jinping Makes Provocative Moves against Chinese
Neighbors to Save His Regime
-- By Qi ZhiFeng and Wei Zhi, Voice of America

02.06.2014 10:38

WASHINGTON -- In early 1989, Wei Jingsheng, the most famous Chinese
political prisoner and one of the famous political prisoners around the
world, was still in a prison in western China's Qinghai Province.  In
1979, Wei Jingsheng issued a statement that the most urgent need of China
is democratization, that we cannot let the dictatorship be the scourge of
China.  Then Wei Jingsheng was given heavy sentences on charges of
"counter-revolutionary crimes."

At the beginning of 1989, Chinese scientist Fang Lizhi wrote a letter to
the then supreme leader of the Communist Party Deng Xiaoping, requesting
the release of Wei Jingsheng and other political prisoners as a way to
show that the Chinese Communist regime was a regime that was willing to
join the civilized world.

Subsequently, Chinese intellectual groups followed with many letters to
the Communist Party and the Chinese legislative bodies, demanding the
release of political prisoners, the implementation of political reform,
and to promote building of democracy.

The actions of the Chinese intellectuals calling for reform and demand for
democracy, became the pilot of the 1989 country-wide demonstrations of
democracy and anti-corruption around China initiated by the students.

On the night of June 3 and early morning of June 4 of 1989, the Chinese
authorities headed by Deng Xiaoping deployed troops to violently suppress
the peaceful demonstrations in Beijing.  Hundreds of people were killed.

In September 1993, Wei Jingsheng, who was put in prison in 1979 by the
Communist regime, was released.  After he left prison, Wei Jingsheng did
not change his mind.  He continued his call for the implementation of
political reforms and the realization of democratization in China.  For
that, he was arrested again in April 1994.  In December 1995, Chinese
authorities gave him another sentence of 14 years on charges of
"conspiracy to subvert the government."

In 1997, the Chinese and the U.S. governments made a deal to send Wei
Jingsheng into exile to the USA in the name of medical treatment.

As the 25th anniversary of the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown was approaching,
Wei Jingsheng accepted an exclusive interview with the Voice of America.
He believes that the Chinese Communist regime is currently facing a
serious crisis of survival, so the leader Xi Jinping has to distract and
"unify" the people by provoking around internationally.

VOA reporter: "Politically speaking, 1989 was a special year in
contemporary China.  That year, less than a week after New Year's Day,
Chinese scientist Fang Lizhi wrote a letter to Deng Xiaoping, the then
supreme leader of China, requesting the release of you and political
prisoners like you, thus initiating the prelude of the 1989 democracy
movement in China.  Subsequently, groups of intellectuals in China
published open letters one after another, demanding the release of
political prisoners in the Communist China, thus forming a movement.  That
kind of movement was the first of its kind since the Chinese Communists
came to power in 1949.  You were in prison at that time and did you know
these things were happening outside?"

* Around the Release for the First Time *

Wei Jingsheng: At first, I was not fully aware.  But I did know some.
Why?  Because in Qinghai where I was imprisoned, we had to buy lamb every
September and October, otherwise we could not get it in the winter.  The
winters in Qinghai were very cold.

However, in that year of 1988, there was an old policeman who told me not
to buy lamb because I could go home on October 1.  That meant people like
Deng Xiaoping had already made the decision to release me.  Deng was not
comfortable to carry on like that, when I was in prison.  That is because
he was scolded every day by both International and domestic criticism.
So, there was already a plan and I did not buy lamb when they asked me not
to.

I waited and waited.  There was still no news after October 1.  I asked
what was going on.  They told me that I would be home to celebrate the
Chinese New Year after the New Year Day of 1989.  But there was still no
news after the New Year Day of 1989.  Then they explained and there were
many people writing letters to the Central Committee of the Communist
Party that made Deng Xiaoping very unhappy, so the original plan of my
release was stopped.

Even at that time, I had heard about it.

VOA reporter: Which year was you released?  After your release, did you
meet with Fang Lizhi?

Wei Jingsheng: I met with Mr. Fang in the United States.  We met a few
times during all at the gatherings in New York.

Of course, we all think that Mr. Fang's actions were not just for me.  To
launch this campaign also had the purpose to push democratization in
China.  This is one of the reasons.  The release of political prisoners
would be one of the first steps in the process to open expression.

Thus, they all responded with open letters.  People in the fields of
technology and culture, as well as all the other communities wrote open
letters and formed a movement and a trend of thought.  Initially, I was
secretly told about it by the prison guards.

* The 1989 Democracy Movement Would Likely Be Successful *

VOA reporter: Looking back at that campaign of 1989, according to your
past experience of engaging in the democratic movement in China (we know
you had participated in the democratic movement in China more than 25
years ago), do you think the 1989 pro-democracy movement was likely to
succeed?

Wei Jingsheng: Actually it was possible.  Why?  At that time, most Chinese
were supporting (the then Secretary-General of the Central Committee of
the Communist Party) Zhao Ziyang.

I watched TV every day and was paying close attention to it.  I was in
prison then, but we watched TV every day.  One of the measures of
improving the living condition for us prisoners, after the former
Secretary-General of the Communist Party Hu Yaobang visited Qinghai, was
that we could watch TV every day.

At that time, I noticed when I was watching TV, even some cronies of Deng
Xiaoping, such as Qin Jiwei and Hong Xuezhi, who had followed Deng
Xiaoping since the Red Army period, supported Zhao Ziyang.  They did not
support the martial law.  They did not support opening fire to kill.
During the meeting announcing the martial law in May, they were dressed in
civilian clothes.

Even from the TV, we could feel the situation within the Chinese Communist
Party.  Most people were standing with Zhao Ziyang.  They felt that China
should reform, instead of keeping the old way of economic reform without
political reform.  When the economy and politics are not matching each
other, there are more and more problems, and getting more and more
serious.  At that time, most people supported Zhao Ziyang.

If Zhao was determined, this could have been accomplished.  In fact that
would be the case.  If he carried it out it would be accomplished, just as
Gorbachev was able to accomplish it.

However, Zhao Ziyang had one step back, and then Deng Xiaoping came up and
fully reversed it.  Look at the early 1990's, even Deng himself could not
stand it anymore; even economic reforms had regressed.  That was because
the so-called the reactionaries prevailed.

VOA Reporter: You just said Zhao Ziyang took one step back, what does that
mean?

Wei Jingsheng: He did not speak up.  We all felt that he should not let
(then Premier) Li Peng commit all kinds of outrages, that the central
government should respond to call of the intelligentsia and the people to
start the political reforms with drastic measures.

This would completely put aside the power of Deng Xiaoping.  Things would
be like this.  Deng blocked it there, so we could not make political
reform.  Zhao Ziyang had so much power.  Why couldn't he put Deng Xiaoping
aside?  That would be perfectly justified and legal.  Zhao was the
legitimate leader, but not Deng.  Why should Zhao be afraid of Deng?

Further, to be honest, when Zhao Ziyang was not speaking up and Deng
Xiaoping was, the army could only listen to Deng.  For Zhao to give the
order, it would be legitimate.  If Zhao had spoken up, then it would be
more than one Xu Qinxian, the commander of the 38th Army who was mobilized
to Beijing to suppress the protest, who had refused to execute the order
of suppression.  Probably the other officials and soldiers of various
armies would not execute the command from Deng Xiaoping either.

Of course it was legitimate for Commander Xu Qinxian to refuse to carry
out the repression.  Deng Xiaoping was a retired person, who did not have
the power to order the suppression.  Moreover, according to the tradition
of the Chinese Communist Party in the past, the military cannot listen to
the command of one person.  This was true even during the Mao Zedong era,
when at least three people of Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai, and Lin Biao were
needed.  Later, it would be the signatures from Zhao Ziyang and Li Peng.
Not just Li alone, plus Deng Xiaoping to make the decision.  The order did
not even meet the rule of the Chinese Communist regime itself.  So the
revolt from commander Xu was reasonable.

* Is There Any Influence to Work for China from Overseas *

VOA reporter: You were sentenced twice to jail time in China.  Your every
move makes Chinese Communist authorities worried.  Thus you have your
influence.  Do you think you still make political impact on China?

Wei Jingsheng: In 1997, Jiang Zemin (then Secretary-General of the Chinese
Communist Party) made a deal with Bill Clinton (then U.S. President).  The
deal was that the USA would let Jiang visit the USA and completely abolish
sanctions against China, in exchange for the release of me.  So I came to
the United States.

When they asked me about this, I also weighed carefully -- was it better
off for me to stay in jail, or to come out?  I thought it would be better
to come out, because I think at that time of 1997, the overseas democracy
movement was at a very low level that was very difficult to influence the
international community.  However, for a country to have peaceful
evolution, it is absolutely indispensable to have the pressure and
influence of the international community.

So, I thought it just as well for me to go abroad.  Although there were a
lot of people who told me that they thought that I should not come out,
that I should stay in jail to get that year's Nobel Peace Prize.  But I
think that was not important.  It is important to be able to promote
democracy movement in China.  So I decided to go abroad at that time.

Before that, I was also asked about leaving China.  Then I did not agree.
But in 1997, I thought that I was needed overseas, I felt a responsibility
to continue my influence.  I think I made the right decision.  For more
than one decade now, I have my influence overseas.

Despite that the international community's concerns about human rights in
China is getting weaker and weaker, we also should realize that without
the striving of us from overseas, without the support of people of other
nations, how much more China would go backwards.

* Tough Time Overseas, but It Will Not Change the Determination *

VOA reporter: Many Chinese viewers and readers are concerned of the exiled
life of the leader of the democratic movement then, for you as an
individual personally.  They are most interested to know what do your kind
of people feel for this forced exile.  Can you talk about it?

Wei Jingsheng: All the people put in exile overseas have more difficult
living environments than they had in China.  They have the language
barrier, unfamiliar environment, are without relatives or friends, thus
invisibly have lost a lot of help.  So, our lives are very hard.  In this
situation, you have to come up with considerable effort and time to make a
living, usually doing work very different from what was familiar.

Then, you want to make time and effort to participate in various
activities of the democratic movement.  It is very difficult.  I think
most of us have made great contributions, but not for the sake of being
famous.

I think our friends engaging in the overseas democracy movement is not any
easier than for friends inside China.  For the people inside China, it is
dangerous yet with better environment where people support you.  Outside
China are foreigners who do not understand you.  They are just curious.
For example, I was hospitalized due to my illness, the nurses told me
that, "wow I heard you are a hero, etc."  But that is about it.

Inside China, it is not the same.  Whatever you do there, you will receive
a lot of public support, which makes you full of confidence.  And there
will be many people to help you.

Therefore, there are both advantages and shortcomings for engaging in the
democratic movement overseas and inside China.  Being abroad is very hard
and not relaxed at all.

* The Survival Crisis of the Communist Regime *

VOA reporter: After the Communist regime suppressed people's demand for
democracy and anti-corruption, it has stood for 25 years.  Do you think
the communist regime will stand for another 25 years?

Wei Jingsheng: Xi Jinping will even have a hard time to survive 10 years.

I think that since Xi Jinping came to power, he has taken a strong
attitude against Japan and the South China Sea issues largely because his
regime is unstable.

Because during the history since the Communist Party came to power, it has
been at war non-stop.  For the Communist regime, the power struggle has
two forms.  One is that it kept having coups; the other is that it kept
having wars.

Many people are muddleheaded and claim that the Communist regime has not
had coups.  How could that be true?  The Communist Party had coups all the
time.  The most serious one was the one with Lin Biao, who almost made it.
 Hua Guofeng made his way, which was a coup.

So to the people who claim that the Communist Party did not have wars, let
us count.  We will find that the Communists never stopped having wars,
which include the one by Deng Xiaoping when he came to power, in an effort
to establish his authority.

An authoritarian regime requires a strong authority.  Xi Jinping does not
have this authority now.  So his motivation for war is very strong.  The
whole world should be wary of this.


Original link of this interview:
http://www.voachinese.com/content/weijingsheng-interview-20140602/1927532.html

Related interview is also available at:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2014/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140602VOAexclusive.mp4
and
http://youtu.be/Xg3DAzi6uWg

Related photos: Wei Jingsheng accepts VOA special interview on May 9, 2014:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-5/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140509VOAinterview-c-4.jpg
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-5/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140509VOA1-c-4.jpg
http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-5/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140509VOA2-c-4.jpg

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中文版

Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A825-W525
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号: A825-W525

Release Date: June 22, 2014
发布日:2014年6月22日

Topic: Wei Jingsheng: Xi Jinping Makes Provocative Moves against Chinese
Neighbors to Save His Regime (VOA exclusive interview)
标题:魏京生:习近平对外挑衅保政权(美国之音专访)

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准(英文在前,中文在后)

如有中文乱码问题,请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2014/report2014-06/WeiJSon1989DemocracyMovement140622VOAexclusiveA825-W525.htm

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